Thread created as a spin-off of an Ask The Tropers thread.
There have been some recurring problems when it comes to how to refer to a character due to them being potentially transgender, such as Yamato or Snapdragon, or has other circumstances that make their gender identity/pronouns unclear. While in the past each character has gotten their own dedicated thread, the latest problem when it comes to how to interpreted Bridget has raised an opinion that there should be more of a general thread discussing these topics in case any future problems come up. Preferably we should discuss one character at a time before moving up to the next character.
Queries about references to a character's deadname are also on-topic here.
Spoilers in the thread must be tagged.
As a rule of thumb, using they/them in cases where the character's gender is unclear is acceptable.
If someone disregards consensus that was established here, particularly if a character is clearly trans and someone is trying to deny that, it's something to report on Ask The Tropers rather than here.
Spoilers in this "Resolved characters" folder are unmarked.
- General policy on characters who reincarnate/gain new bodies, and have their gender change when they do so (in specific, Eternals (2021), Doctor Who): When discussing a particular incarnation/body, use the pronouns the work and its characters used for the character in that form. When a character has used different pronouns at different times (e.g. for different incarnations), default to they/them pronouns if discussing the character overall. Discussion begins here.
- A from Xenoblade Chronicles 3: Intentionally not addressed by pronouns, use the name A. Discussion begins here
- Acht/Dedf1sh from Splatoon: They/them. Discussion begins here.
- Apep from Genshin Impact: It/its. Discussion begins here.
- Arval from Fire Emblem Warriors: Three Hopes: They/them. Discussion begins here
- Baron Ashura from Mazinger Z: They/them pronouns for their appearance in Super Robot Wars. Discussion begins here.
- Bedman? from Guilty Gear: It/its. Discussion begins here.
- Blitzcrank from League of Legends: They/them pronouns. Discussion begins here.
- Bridget from Guilty Gear: Confirmed to be a trans woman and uses she/her pronouns. Discussion begins in this discussion page thread, then continues in this Ask the Tropers query followed by the first post of this thread.
- Buzam A. "BC" Calessa from Vandread: She/her. Discussion begins here.
- Candy Caramella from Space Goofs: He/him in the original cartoon, she/her when referring to the version of Candy in the spin-off game Stupid Invaders. Discussion begins here.
- Cheese from Sonic the Hedgehog: He/him when referring to the version in the video games, they/them for the version in the IDW comics. Discussion begins here.
- Cho'gath from League of Legends: Both he/him and it/its are fine, as long as the pronoun used is consistent within a given example. Discussion begins here.
- Claude from Claudine: He/him. Discussion begins here.
- Dragona from JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: He/him until more information is given. Discussion begins here.
- Enkidu from Fate Series: They/them. Discussion begins here.
- F.F. from Jo Jos Bizarre Adventure Stone Ocean: They/them pronouns. Discussion starts here.
- FLUDD from Super Mario Sunshine: It/its pronouns. Discussion starts here.
- Funtime Foxy from Five Nights at Freddy's: Intentionally Ambiguous Gender; he/she pronouns. Discussion starts here and continues here.
- Gabriela from Como dice el dicho: She/her, use the name Gabriela. Discussion begins here.
- Gala Laxi from Dragalia Lost: They/them when referring to the combined entity of Laxi and Mascula. She/her when referring to just Laxi, he/him when referring to just Mascula. Discussion begins here.
- Gozer from Ghostbusters (1984): They/them. Discussion starts here.
- Gwyndolin from Dark Souls: He/him pronouns. Discussion begins here.
- Hassan of Intoxicated Smoke from Fate/Grand Order: He/him pronouns. Discussion starts here.
- Heather Swanson from South Park: "She/her" pronouns (Scare Quotes included). Discussion starts here and continues here.
- Hibari from Stop Hibari Kun: She/her pronouns.
- Juniper from Xenoblade Chronicles 3: They/them pronouns. Discussion starts here.
- Kris from Deltarune: They/them pronouns, and is to be treated as nonbinary unless otherwise stated. This decision was made in this thread.
- Lambert from Cult of the Lamb: They/them. Discussion starts here
- Lor from Borderlands: He/him, use the name Lor. Discussion begins here.
- Mangle from Five Nights at Freddy's: Intentionally Ambiguous Gender; he/she pronouns. Discussion starts here.
- Mordred from Fate Series: She/her, with an Ambiguous Gender Identity entry. Discussion starts here.
- Morpheus Duvall from Resident Evil: Dead Aim: They/them on the Resident Evil - Umbrella Corporation character page. Discussion begins here.
- Omochao from Sonic the Hedgehog: They/them. Discussion begins here.
- Osana Najimi from Komi Can't Communicate: They/them pronouns. Discussion begins here.
- Pamela Incu from Welcome to Demon School! Iruma-kun: He/him. Discussion begins here.
- Phantom Mangle from Five Nights at Freddy's: Intentionally Ambiguous Gender; he/she pronouns. Discussion starts here.
- Prized Isshin Blade from Genshin Impact: He/him. Discussion begins here
- Pokémon in general from Pokémon: Gendered pronouns when discussing a specific individual Pokémon, it/its when discussing a Pokémon species in general. Discussion begins here, is continued here.
- La Pucelle from Magical Girl Raising Project: He/him in civilian form, she/her when transformed into a magical girl. Discussion begins here.
- Snapdragon from High Guardian Spice: They/them pronouns. This decision was made in this thread via crowner.
- Stella Lulu from Magical Girl Raising Project: He/him in civilian form, she/her when transformed into a magical girl. Discussion begins here.
- Sui from Campfire Cooking in Another World with My Absurd Skill: It/its. Discussion begins here.
- Takatsuki from Wandering Son: He/him except for when discussing the end of the manga beneath spoiler tags. In that case, she/her. Discussion begins here
- Terri from Amphibia: They/them. Discussion begins here
- Thailand from Scandinavia and the World: They/them, per what's used on this official FAQ page.
- The Toaster from The Brave Little Toaster: He/him pronouns. This decision was made in this thread.
- Topa from The Orville: she/her outside Recap pages, pronouns at time of episode on Recap. Discussion begins here.
- Vennia from Cafe Enchante: Both he/him and they/them are fine, as long as the pronoun used is consistent within a given example. Discussion begins here.
- The vessels (the Knight, the Hollow Knight, the Broken Vessel, and the other void siblings) from Hollow Knight: It/its. Discussion begins here, is continued here.
- Vivian from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door: She/her pronouns. Due to Adaptational Gender Identity, whether she's transgender or cisgender depends on the localization. Discussion begins here.
- Yamato from One Piece: He/him pronouns. This decision was decided in this thread via crowner.
- Yena from Seton Academy: Join the Pack!: He/him pronouns. Discussion begins here.
Edited by Bisected8 on Apr 22nd 2024 at 1:16:38 PM
We shouldn't try to call this one until the film's out.
I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.True, but people have been rather vehement about it both on X/Twitter and here.
It's impossible to make a call without the finished work.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure PurenessTrue, but for the time being should some mention be made that the merch descriptions—as shown above—and Word of God statements are unreliable regarding Shimo's gender?
Yeah. Mention it's up for debate, but don't stick with anything consistent until the work is released to resolve this debate.
I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.Bringing the SP character up again, but have we resolved Heather Swanson yet?
Tropers seem to leaning on using quoted she/her pronouns.
Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation projectScare quotes are certainly unusual, but there's no better option.
I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.Speaking of South Park, there's another character identity I'd like to discuss, although pronouns aren't up for debate in this one. I speak of Token Williams/Token Black/Tolkien Black.
Because this isn't a deadnaming situation by any means, I'd assume the easy solution would be "main show uses Tolkien except when referring specifically to in-universe uses of Token, recaps and spinoff media use whichever name was active at the time", which is more-or-less how the pages already deal with things.
(And yes, naming the Token Minority "Token Black" was a bad idea out-of-universe, but that's beside the point.)
I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.If the show is straight up gonna retcon even the previous episodes and say that his name was always Tolkein, then that's it, Tolkein is the name we're going with.
Token should only really be brought up when the show brings it up as a talking point.
Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation projectBecause of the unique nature of this as having nothing to do with gender or pronouns, we have a legitimate opportunity to form a precedent for Orwellian Retcon situations.
Basically: does his name being retroactively spelled as Tolkien in closed captions allow us to spell it that way in recaps etc., despite the fact it would ordinarily break the spoiler policy? I'm still leaning no, but I can be convinced otherwise.
I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.It doesn't matter if it does break the policy. If the show is straight up retconning the episodes prior to the reveal by having the official captions call him Tolkein, then Tolkein is what we should go with for those recaps.
Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Jan 22nd 2024 at 9:58:57 PM
Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation projectMaybe on the specific matter of recaps, we should take it to the dedicated Recap Cleanup thread, as this has gone beyond the typical scope of this thread...
I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.I'm generally against updating episodic works pages to account for later retcons, simply for comprehensibility reasons. A page about Book One in a series should be based on that book, not what Book Six says about it, and you shouldn't need to be familiar with the later book to make sense of the page for the former. And some works have enough of a Continuity Snarl that the principle can't be applied consistently anyway.
(It was worth considering for me that in this case the difference is probably inaudible when spoken, but I'm also not inclined to help artists whitewash problematic creative decisions rather than acknowledge them as they were published. It misrepresents the earlier episodes to pretend that the joke was different all along, and it seems better to simply mention it in a trivia entry like Inconsistent Spelling.)
The Revolution Will Not Be TropeableList both imo.
Oissu!I asked about this when it was first revealed. I'd say go with the retcon, but only for media that's able to be retconned. So something like an old offline video game can probably stay, but online video games (i.e. South Park: Phone Destroyer) and the various episodes that were released digitally (which is nearly all of them).
FWIW, the South Park wiki does retcon his name in previous appearances.
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.Well. It looks like an editor has settled the debate regarding Shimo's gender once and for all. Unilaterally. Without bringing it up here given the intense debate that'd been surrounding it, or that multiple retailers for the merchandise do use female pronouns for it.
Edited by Arawn999 on Jan 27th 2024 at 3:05:07 AM
I think we have enough consensus for Heather having quoted "she/her" as consensus that we can put it in the header
Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation projectAfter watching Jujutsu Kaisen, I noticed that this wiki refers to Hanami as male. The anime gave them an Ambiguous Gender with a very feminine voice (at least in Japanese) contrasting their masculine-looking body. I don't remember Hanami being referred to with any particular pronouns at any point, but I might have missed something.
The fandom wiki page uses they/them. I've seen multiple Reddit users who are insistent that Hanami is male, but I'm getting the impression that this is because the manga translation made the decision to refer to Hanami as such and those readers are just used to that (correct me if I'm wrong). Others are saying that in Japanese, Hanami is left genderless.
I feel like defaulting to the translation is the best bet here.
I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.We didn't do that with Crona from Soul Eater, though... mostly because it's generally agreed upon that them having referred to Crona with male pronouns was a "Blind Idiot" Translation move and IIRC the localization team said that they only used "he/him" because that was the convention back when it was translated, whereas now it's shifted to using "they/them".
Edited by Arawn999 on Feb 4th 2024 at 7:34:25 AM
What I'm trying to say is that the line for ignoring the work has to be set high, and if there's been no acknowledgement of an error, Hanami doesn't appear to reach that line.
I'm unfamiliar with JJK as a whole beyond a few scattered memes, so there may be a part of this I'm not getting.
I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.Added.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Re. Shimo from Godzilla x Kong: The New Empire, the character's gender was set to female because some venders (Amazon and Target) were used female pronouns for the "Shimo with Frost Bite Blast" toy (although apparently they forgot to change all the pronouns), but at least one other retailer (Smyths Toys UK) is selling the exact same toy while referring to Shimo with male pronouns in the official product description.
Also, the artist who designed the film's kaiju has also referred to Shimo with male pronouns on his X/Twitter account.
Edited by Arawn999 on Jan 19th 2024 at 9:35:15 AM