Question About Stock Phrase Tropes, or At Least the Definition of "I Lied"

Okay, I previously attempted to ask this on the Ask The Tropers page, but it got locked because I didn't realize that that page wasn't meant for trope-related questions. But either way, my question is, are Stock Phrases required when regarding the definition of certain tropes? The reason I'm asking is because I recently had a video example for I Lied get rejected because the character in question said "SUCKER!!!" instead of "I lied" (or some other variation of the phrase), but otherwise, the main principles of the trope were still present (at least as far I'm aware).

In my opinion, the real scope of the trope is "character reveals to be a liar", which is most commonly accompanied with the "I lied" stock phrase, but shouting "SUCKERS!!!!!" would elicit pretty much the same reaction in the "liee".
Otherwise, restricting the trope only to those cases when it's accompanied by "I lied", not only it would have much less examples, but it would quickly turn into a list of characters saying "I lied", and not so much about why characters would say that.

If the description is confusing to you, change it. A lot of the Stock Phrases tropes need to be updated.

You can't unilaterally change large parts of a trope description. You can bring it up in the Trope Description Improvement Drive, though.

That's the problem with all the articles now labelled Stock Phrases: they were defined as a particular line of dialogue and not the underlying trope. I think some of them can be repurposed as tropes by broadening the definition (like making I'm Not Here to Make Friends into a character trait), but that will require going through TRS.

Gotta love the Wild West days of the wiki. If I had my druthers, I think I would just redirect this to the Truth and Lies index.

Yeah, it was the fact that the trope was labeled as a stock phrase that gave me pause. In most cases the phrases need to be specific.

If there's consensus here though I'm cool with accepting the video. Hipster and I were just at an impasse for a bit.

Edited by WarJay77 on Apr 22nd 2024 at 8:01:22 AM

As I already said in the "is this an example" thread, I always figured that this was about the sentiment of a character going back on a deal or promise by claiming that they weren't being sincere when they made it, rather than about the specific phrase "I lied." After all, the former is a trope, and the latter isn't.

No question there... But our definitions don't depend on what's more or less tropeworthy. I'm going with what's strictly written on the page.

Huh, didn't think anyone actually found my thread (mainly because I didn't see any notifications in Messages or Queries for any responses for this thread), but yeah, I agree, I don't think the trope should be defined by it's respective Stock Phrase, but rather the Stock Phrase should be used as a way of enhancing the trope's definition and to show how commonplace it has become in media (or I dunno, something along those lines).

Yeah, there was a whole thing in the early days of the wiki where a bunch of stock phrases were created as tropes when they really shouldn't have been, because they're really just frequently repeated phrases without any significant narrative meaning. That's why the No New Stock Phrases rule exists now.

I agree that it should be defined that way, but I'm not sure it currently is.

Also, yeah, no notifications for forum posts.

Maye the very concept of Stock Phrases could be a trope (or useful notes page, if all else fails) in of itself, rather than the individual Stock Phrases themselves.

(You only get notifications for forum posts if someone specifically pings you by preceding a link to your troper page with a tilde, such as ~Morgan Wick. Otherwise you have to manually follow the thread by pressing the pin button and regularly check your thread watchlist.)

Is this an example told me to take here. From Quotes.You Monster

Does You Monster! only apply if "Monster'' is used verbatim? I think it shouldn't as it would mean any foreign language would technically disqualify.

My question is how flexible are Stock Phrases in using synonyms and euphemism? (You're Insane! allows "mad" and "crazy".)

If about the intent than the Phrase part is irrelevant such, and in accordance with the intent behind No New Stock Phrases, maybe existing Stock Phrases should eventually be retooled/renamed to being about the actions not the phrase?

Two other things for consideration.

• You Monster! being the in-universe equivalent of Complete Monster was back when CM was loosely defined/just another YMMV. Since then it has such strict criteria and lengthy approval (requiring analysis of the whole work) process it's different than YM which tends to be in-universe knee-jerk.
• If You Fool! doesn't require "Fool" used verbatim, is it the in-universe equivalent of What an Idiot!? An in-work reaction/calling out of stupidity seems like a missing trope. It shows how much we could get from fixing Stock Phrases to proper tropes.

I looked over the definition of You Monster!, and for the most part, it seems to only apply to when one character is calling another character a villain, or at least in the former's eyes, so I'm not entirely sure if that first example counts given that it's an Anti-Villain calling The Hero a monster (though, keep in mind that I am not familiar with Lyrical Nanoha at all, and only skimmed over the episode recap and character sheet to get very loose context behind the scene, so please tell me if I am missing any details).

As for that second quote, it seems more like an example of You're Insane! given the wording, though You Monster! might still apply given the context behind the scene (though, again, I'm not familiar with Mobile Suit Gundam SEED Destiny, so please tell me if I am missing any details).

Edited by HipsterDog02 on May 18th 2024 at 2:52:51 AM

In this context I would go with You're Insane! because Athrun cares for Shinn and knows he has been going through a chronic mental breakdown that culminates in this lashing out.

I would add that if You Monster! has to be verbatim, there's yet another can of worms in the case of media that is not of Anglophone origin.