Relationship Critique Thread

@Anbar - Hmm, that's an interesting type of question.

I think Shona and Basil would make the best couple, simply because I can see it developing in a stable and mutually beneficial relationship.

We seem to have gotten a bit off topic, for which I certainly must take a part of the blame. Does anyone have a new relationship they would like critiqued? If not, I'll post another of mine from another potential story sometime in the next day or so.

You know, if you want somebody to pay attention to your criticism, being insulting is probably not the way to go. And the whole "I forgot who I was talking to" thing, coupled with your generally condescending tone, is insulting. It's not just me either. Both njrxll and Occasional Exister have noted the aforementioned rudeness, and suggested you knock it off, so instead of denying that it was rude, why don't you just stop?

With that out of the way, let's get a few things straight. This thread is not in any way shape or form about my problems with romantic relationships. It's an open forum for any and all tropers to post relationships that they would like critiqued, so as to iron out flaws and pick out potential problems. It's a counterpoint to the already existent Hero Critique, Villain Critique, and Nation Critique Threads, none of which are about me either. I'll note that neither I, nor anybody else who has posted here, needs a lecture on what a relationship is or what love is, or anything of the sort, thanks all the same. And if you want to talk about Gundam and Tomino's ability to write relationships (or almost total inability to do so in my opinion) take it to the Gundam thread, please.

As to your specific comments on the story, they remain not particularly helpful. If you were arguing that the characters were too damaged to be in relationships that'd be one thing. In fact that would be a perfectly valid criticism and one I'd be happy to have. Problem is, that isn't what you said. Instead you advocated that I should damage them more than they already are so as to prevent them from being in relationships for little reason beyond your personal dislike of romance in this kind of story. This despite my having specifically stated that I want to get the characters over their issues and into a state of mind where they could be in relationships, and my initial confused response was not because I did not understand what you were saying, but because I was baffled as to why you thought it was useful advice. You think romance in an action story is overdone? That's fine and great. It just doesn't help me any.

All that said, why don't you post a relationship for the rest of us to take a look at? I know I'd be interested to see what you write and I'm sure the rest of the thread would be too.

@Occasional Exister

Thanks for the critique. Taking into account your, d-Roy, and electronic-tragedy's posts, I expect that Basil and Shona will likely be one of the final pairs. Though I freely admit that there's a part of me that's tempted to make it Basil x Emary and Shona x Ike just to see if I'm a talented enough writer to pull that last one off.

@d Roy

Thank you. At this point, given the fact that most commentators have said the same, I expect Shona x Basil will be one of the final pairings should I ever write the story.

@ Sharysa:

I came up with the idea for the creatures before naming them wendigos; I was thinking in terms of them being beasts that were once human. I vaguely remember reading about a variant of the legend were a person can be at risk of becoming on just by encountering one, but I could easily be wrong.

They would know if he was about to transform, it takes several seconds and isn't subtle. Every patient in the quarantine camp are charged to bring restraints with them at all times and to apply them while sleeping. Caleb keeps following this rule even after they has to flee the camp from a group that wants to capture him and "disappear" Autumn (in fact it's far more important that he does so out there, and he can't go into cities). Humans are immune because of the metaphysics of the world, but that will eventually change if events are allowed to proceed without interference.

EDIT: Earlier I posted without responding to another couple because the last one already had comments, you have my apologies if I was in error. I'll be sure to critique one soon.

edited 31st Aug '15 6:52:23 PM by Novis

There's a few different versions of the Wendigo myth, most of which involve a person transforming into some sort of animalistic ice-giant after committing the taboo of cannibalism. Similar creatures recur across a fair swath of North American myth, with names as varied as Chenoo, Giwaka, and Witiko (a link to the subject of ice-cannibals if you're interested; from it you can find a number of variants of the myths). The transformation is usually permanent, but there are stories of people being defrosted from the heart of one of the monsters.

Looking forward to your commentary.

edited 31st Aug '15 10:44:38 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Knock it off in this context means to stop posting the same point over and over. Just because people disagree with you does not mean that they failed to understand what you meant so repeating it over and over does not change anything. Even if you were being misunderstood being rude and condescending would not help your case.

@Novis RE:Caleb and Autumn

Relationships where one person is in real danger of seriously injuring/killing the other have always made me a little uncomfortable. It usually results in the weaker party (who is usually a girl) staying in a dangerous situation for love. What I find uncomfortable about this is how it could translate to realistic setting. I would not want a girl to stay with a guy that she knew was liable to snap and kill her. That would be a very unhealthy situation.

As to weather he should tell her about his feeling I don't think that he should. If he does truly love her I don't see him wanting to put her in danger.

You know, I actually felt bad for a second because I thought maybe I imagined it when I interpreted you as being condescending. Thank you for alleviating that doubt. You've gone from being mildly rude, to singling out and attacking another troper, and that's bull. Honestly, if you had just said, "I don't think any of these characters would work in relationships with each other, and because of their issues, I recommend not pairing any of them," and ended it there? That would have been fine since that's your opinion and the entire point of this thread is for tropers to get advice on how to portray their relationships. You did not do that. Instead you insulted the person who made the thread in the first place by insinuating they don’t understand love or relationships, which is not only stupid, but completely uncalled for. Also, it is your responsibility to mind your tone, just the same as I do and everyone else on the site. It's called civility. And if you're really going to reference Jerkass Has a Point in relation to yourself, maybe you should just try not to be a Jerkass.

If Basil and Shona, or really any of the characters Ambar proposed, got together in the story, I sincerely doubt it would be a big, incomprehensible mess. Honestly, if I can believe people can literally make contracts with abstract concepts in order to get superpowers, I'm totally fine with imagining a minor criminal and an abused girl getting over their issues and finding love. Yeah, I imagine it wouldn't be easy, but not impossible. Yes, you're correct that people are complex—though I disagree with your assessment that there's zero indication of what's going on in those characters' minds or how damaged they are—and you are also correct that in real-life, fixing deep-seated psychological problems is complicated. It can also be complicated in fiction. But the entire purpose of Character Development is to take one character from Point A to Point B in a natural progression during the course of a story. Counseling sessions and medication are perfectly healthy ways for individuals to improve in real-life, but it isn't a requirement to show these things in a work of fiction. Readers will adapt and suspend disbelief so long as the development appears to occur naturally. For example, if I'm writing a character who starts out as a Dirty Coward and I wanted their character arc to be about becoming braver, I would probably include having the character feel guilty over running in the past, be inspired by more heroic characters and express a desire to follow their example, repeatedly expose him to fears which would leave him marginally better each time, and forming a connection to something or someone he's unwilling to either abandon or prioritize behind himself. If at the end of an arc, I had him sacrifice himself to save who or what he’s become attached to, I think most readers wouldn’t argue that it's unnatural. Anything can be believable so long as it's written well.

edited 1st Sep '15 8:28:04 PM by OccasionalExister

I think it's probably better if I just move on and propose an example. Sorry for distracting the thread. Also, hoping that I'm not breaking the rules by bringing this couple up. I did give input on Ambar's characters before, I just didn't have time to write up my own characters yet.

So here’s some background information. The setting of the story is a gritty, medieval fantasy that leans more to the cynical side of the scale and Anyone Can Die (where’d I get that idea?!). Magic and monsters exist, but they’re mostly relegated to the sidelines, and humans are the focus. The story is set in the wake of a civil war set off by a succession crisis, where a noble who claimed himself to be the bastard son of the previous king, was defeated and executed by the forces of the "rightful" ruler, the former king’s nephew. The main focus of the story is the clean-up following the aftermath of the war.

The two main characters of the story, and the ones whom I’d like some input on, are Constance and Malachi. Constance is a twenty-something servant girl who has lived her entire life in the castle of a lord who was on the winning side of the war. She’s always been fascinated by stories of knighthood and adventure, and has always wanted to be like the heroes of old. When a band of soldiers, led by a few knights, visit her lord’s castle on their way to hunt down bandits, deserters, and remnants of the "pretender king’s" army, she is seduced by one particularly boastful knight and "falls in love with him." She runs away from the castle to be with her "beloved", only to find out he is a married jackass who just wanted a quick lay. Unable/unwilling to return after her disgrace, she stays on as a Camp Follower to at the very least be near people who could go on the adventures she never could. That all changes when the soldiers return with the spoils of a lord who both supported the pretender king and was a rumored occultist. One of the soldiers, hoping to earn Constance’s affection, stole one of the rings and gave it to her, only for her to discover that the ring houses Malachi, a demonic servant of the occultist lord. Able to use his magic to bestow amazing skills in battle on her, Constance decides to keep Malachi’s presence a secret and strike out on her own, living like her Knight Errants of legends, travelling the country, righting wrongs and fighting evil, all while trying to fight off Malachi’s corruptive influence.

As can probably be deduced from the plot summary, Constance is in many ways a stubborn, naïve, and hypocritical person, albeit one with good intentions and heroic aspirations. She’s determined to become a knight, even though the sexism in her country prevents that from happening, and she wants to achieve a legend for herself like the ones out of the tales she’s heard as a child. While she wants to tell herself it’s purely for altruistic reasons, a large part of her is unaware that she really does just want to be special. She wants to be more than someone who breaks their back serving another and then dies without the world ever taking notice of her. This is why she takes Malachi’s ring and uses his power. She believes he’s evil, but convinces herself—whether correctly or not would be a mystery for a while—that she can use his power for good. She also tries to delude herself into thinking she’s morally superior and able to resist any effort he might make to corrupt her but that’s pretty clearly not true. She’s also in denial that she’s a pretty big fake since the root of all of her accomplishments come from Malachi’s power, which she prefers not to dwell on. Despite her rationalizations for her own poor behavior, Constance doesn’t really respond well with questions of moral ambiguity and prefers to see the world in terms of good and evil, impairing her judgement greatly. She sees Malachi as a monster and is inclined to reject his advice even when it’s perfectly sound and logical, instead believing it to be some kind of trick. On the opposite spectrum, she was very easily duped into sleeping with a jerk as knight because she believed being a knight meant you're always honorable and true. She also tends to make assumptions on how situations look rather than how they are. This is in large part because her life has been so sheltered and isolated that she’s never had to face moral quandaries. Like most servants, her lord and his men told her what was happening in the world and, with no way of knowing otherwise, she believed what they said and mirrored their opinions without any evidence to back it up. This hampers her a great deal when she goes out into the real-world and it turns out the civil war was not the epic battle of good versus evil that she had been led to believe. She tries to be honorable, courageous and selfless, even when she can’t afford to be any of those things or when the problem she’s trying to correct is way over her head. She begins seeing the kindness and cruelty on both sides of the war, and begins to recognize that her efforts to do right may be doing more harm than good. Her development throughout the story would revolve around her becoming a Knight in Sour Armor. Still travelling and righting wrongs, but someone much more cynical, yet more perceptive of human nature and forgiving towards those she would otherwise condemn due to her increased exposure to the ugly side of the world. Also, on a physical side, she actually learns how to fight on her own instead of constantly relying on Malachi's sword knowledge.

Though a demon, Malachi is not a traditional creature from hell. In this universe, demons were mortal men and women who sold their souls to a well of dark magic called the Nether (named so for the time being) in exchange for power in life. In death, their souls can never pass on and they are trapped in the Nether. The only respite they get is when summoned from the Nether to act as servants to mortals who also call upon the Nether’s power. The only way for their soul to permanently leave the Nether and pass on is for another to willingly take their place. Usually this leaves most demons bitter and twisted, who enjoy causing others suffering because of their own torment, yet still willing to do anything to avoid being banished back and corrupt another to serve their time. However, despite the reputation of his kind, Malachi is remarkably tame. Granted he talks a big game and has a fearsome reputation, but he acts more like a trickster than a sadist. He’s affable if snarky, has virtues, lines he does not want to (but may be forced to) cross, and he does not go in for wanton cruelty. In fact, he actually prefers working for Constance since it’s the first time in centuries he hasn’t been forced to execute the whims of a power-hungry psychopath, making him a bit of a Punch-Clock Hero. That being said, Malachi does have a lot of blood on his hands, and he wasn’t always forced into doing it by his masters. In fact, by his own admission, he was probably worse when he was a mortal than he ever was as a demon, though he dodges any question about his past or why he sold his soul to the Nether for a long time. However, after centuries of being another’s puppet or trapped in the Nether, he has had much time to ruminate on his life and crimes, and he does feel regret for them and takes almost no pleasure in any crimes he commits now. Unfortunately for him, he believes it’s far too late for redemption, and nothing he can ever do can make it right. This means he’ll kill in a heartbeat even if he doesn’t want to, since he’s done it so often, and advocates being logical even if it means being heartless. He serves as Constance’s opposite in the story, being the voice of cynicism and realism in contrast to her idealism, but his character arc involves him becoming slowly more inspired by Constance’s heroics and determination even in the face of ever-growing peril and has him rethinking whether or not it’s too late for him to be redeemed. In fact, Malachi goes so far as to begin falling in love with her and she begins seeing him as a person and not a monster.

Here’s where I’d like some feedback. While at first these two are Teeth-Clenched Teamwork at it’s finest, relying on each other out of necessity because they literally have no other options, but they do grow to warm up to each other over time. They have multiple adventures, take on many enemies and grow to rely on and trust each other, even admire each other in some respects. As I said, Malachi will fall in love with Constance, and he would probably confess sometime in the penultimate book. However, I’m wondering how believable it would be for Constance to return his affections? Or if it would just be better off for her to love him as a friend only. One superficial issue I have is that Malachi is hundreds of years old but he’s still stuck in the twenty-something body he was in when he first sacrificed his soul. He’s grown wiser during his long lifetime, but he’s still not much more mature than he was when he was alive either. To be perfectly blunt, does anybody find this Squicky? Second of all, Constance herself is rather inexperienced with love and especially on her guard given that she hates how easily she was tricked into thinking she was "in love" before. The biggest issue I imagine is that if Constance was ever to fall in love with Malachi, he would have to tell her about his past, and as I mentioned he has a lot of blood on his hands. I really don’t want to just gloss over this by making him just a puppet to bad people, since I want his story to be about a bad person becoming a good person, and searching for redemption even if it is impossible to obtain it. Malachi did make horrible choices, he did do awful things, and there is literally no way for him to ever make it better, but he will become a much different and better person in the present than he ever was in the past. Unfortunately for Malachi, the fallout from his confession of his crimes would cause a gigantic rift between the two for a time. So my question is, is there any way for it to be believable for Constance, after they rebuild their trust, to act on any romantic feelings she could have for him? Or would this revelation be the point where she shuts down any possibility of them being together in the way Malachi wants them to be, and Malachi accepts that? After all, he's still done awful things and those actions have consequences. Maybe he shouldn't achieve happiness in this aspect.

Any input would be greatly appreciated, thank you.

edited 5th Sep '15 6:40:31 PM by OccasionalExister

@Occasional Exister

Looking at the relationship as you've described it, I have trouble seeing them get together. The several hundred year age gap is, as you note, problematic, regardless of maturity levels, as is the very nature of the mystic relationship. Given what you've said about Constance, I can see her coming to deeply care about Malachi, even with all he's done, but not in a sexual or romantic manner.

Actually, and maybe this is just me indulging in cliche, but Malachi's story seems like the kind that ends in a Heroic Sacrifice. You've got all the elements there—the jaded, immortal bad boy who has come to regret his actions and developed an unrequited crush on a good person. It all but screams for an ending where he gives up his life to save hers. Now, whether you should actually go there, I don't know—some of your fans would doubtlessly love it, and you'd likely get an entry on the Tear Jerker page but it would, as I said, be somewhat cliche.

Now, maybe there's something I'm missing, and if you elaborate in another post I'll cheerfully reconsider my recommendation, but as it is I'm seeing a hardcore friendship with an unrequited crush on one side, but not an actual romance.

@Deno

Oh, I'm totally going to ignore your advice. You may not think tone or politeness matters, but I'm of the opinion that taking advice on relationships from somebody who can't be bothered about civility is a lot like taking an ethics lesson from Lex Luthor. I'd comment on some of the other things in your posts, like your claims about my "behavior in other threads" (which given that Exister, njrxll, and Sophia have known me a lot longer than you have is a pretty futile line of attack), or the fact that "knock it off" has exactly one meaning thus making your attempts at denigrating me and brushing off Sophia's correction evidence of either further rudeness on your part, or unfamiliarity with English (maybe both), but Exister is right—this has to end. This will be my last reply to you in this thread, on this topic.

edited 5th Sep '15 10:52:51 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Dang it I accidentally deleted what I was typing.

For, Constance and Malachi, I think a lot of it depends on their specific experiences and what they take away from them. For one, if Constance ends up doing as much harm as good, perhaps it's Malachi's confession of his past acts that could make her realize she hasn't been living up to her ideals, especially if there are parellels to what she's doing and what he's done. I doubt it would be enough to turn a complete rejection into "I don't care, kiss me you fool" "I don't have a mouth", especially seeing how what ever she's done it's probably not nearly as bad; but it may keep some semblance of a bond between them. Ultimately you may just need to get to that part of the story and decide from there, if you haven't reached there already.

EDIT: I'm not in any way trying to imply that what ever crimes Constance puts on her conscience makes it so that she "should" reciprocate, just that they may have more common ground than the temperature of a thousand exploding Suns compared to that of Pluto's surface.

There's one part I'm definitely interested in. Malachi is inspired by Constance's heroism, but that very same heroism is partially fake and selfishly motivated. I like this tension. That's why I think Malachi should start falling for her before she has her act completely together.

@Sopia: Thanks for your counter arguement. I should note that the skylings doomed to transform are under the care of the "Paladins"; who are very serious about keeping others safe from newly made wendigos, including restraints the someone with full mental faculties can move in but will stop a wendigo who grows rapidly and are either to enraged to unlock them or to despondent to care. I may have had the characters put to much trust in these restraints (really they were just handcuffs until I recently started thinking of them more, definitely needs to be changed in coming drafts) than should be reasonable. And they won't work against what Caleb is really turning into, so there's a whole new level of risk when he finds out (this being real name is unknown even to themself, but when Caleb and Zane saw them the two started calling them "Half")[1]. Any the closest real world equivalent definitely makes to whole thing dry questionable.

That said, at the point I'm at in the rough draft figuring out their relationship is a low priority for because they're being pursued. They'll have to wait for the end to see if I feel like the events leading up to the climax warrants them being together.

A closely related issue is that I'm having trouble getting into Autumn's head. While I have a pretty firm grasp on Caleb, Zane, Nicholette, and even "Half"'s psychology, it's not as easy for me to come up with what makes Autumn tick; despite (or knowing me mabye because of) her being one of the few human characters. Do you think this is a topic for another thread?

[1] Ah, the lack of gender neutral personal pronouns.

edited 6th Sep '15 1:16:42 AM by Novis

@Occasional Exister

I'm not adverse to Constance and Malachi forming a romantic relationship but it would depend on what aspects of the story you want to emphasize. From what you have described the relationship would be developed of a fairly long time frame (I was assuming something along the lines of a decade or so to account for multiple adventures). If you want to work with the idea that people can change and become better people I don't think that it is outside of the possibility for him to become the kind of person who could be in a healthy relationship. He has had a long time to think about what he has done and seems to deeply regret it. If Constance has come to a more nuanced view on good and evil I think that it is possible for her to also come to accept that even very bad people can (rarely) become better people and seek redemption. Malachi will likely never be finished atoning for what he has done but that doesn't mean that he is beyond a loving relationship.

The very large age gap doesn't bother me as much since Constance is an adult already at the time of their first meeting and the difference in life experience between a 20 year old and a 50 year old I don't think are really that different from the gap between a 20 year old and an 80 or 800 year old in a medieval society where technology doesn't advance that rapidly. I am assuming that Malachi's time as a demon has been fairly monotonous either stuck in the nether or being used to commit violent acts. He isn't really going to be getting a variety of life experience from that and I would expect that they start to blur together after a while.

@Novis

Well if there truly was a moderately fail-safe way to ensure her safety if he was just a normal Wendigo then I would have far fewer problems with the relationship (or him telling her about his feelings). If the restrains/drugs/magic/whatever nearly guaranteed that he could not be dangerous while transformed there would be no reason for there not to be a relationship.

You have repeatedly missed the point of a common English phrase and are still insisting that it means something different. Assuming that this is due to an unfamiliarity with the language is the kindest interpretation of both your behavior in this forum and the unreadability of your long convoluted posts. There is nothing xenophobic about the suggestion that there may be be a language barrier preventing you from clearly expressing yourself and that we should make allowances. In fact it is very tolerant. There are people from all over world who visit the website so it is easy to run into people who's first language is not English.

I don't understand what point you were trying to make about Ambar's posts in previous threads. You provided links to polite discussions including two where most of the forum agreed with him. In the one about Complete Monsters and tragic backstories all he did was cite the clean-up thread's policy on the correct use of the term. As an occasional participant in the clean-up effort I can attest that there are several thousand posts (44000+) that back up his statements.

Finally "knock it off" NEVER means anything other than cease and desist. There are no other contexts. Also since posts are editable even if we were telling you to go back and change what you had done it would still be possible.

Eh, i gonna be enjoyed to put my idea for a relationship here. And to : My english is bad too, actually write posts in this page is sorta my "practices". And being called up for this is normal.

Well...here we go.

This relationship is for two of the main characters of my "proyect" (Unnamed, i'm very bad for the names). Brandon Harlaw (trust me, the guy has many, many, many, many, many, many names -six actually, Brandon is the seven name. The most longer name aside them was Kazuya- and that was the backstory of my handle).

Brandon is a Nice Guy living in a Crapsack World. In the Last Nation, a mini-continent in where the society is fucked-up. A select bunch of people, the "PSI-users", with Psychic Powers are ruling the country, and two greats cities are the capitals of the Country. Brave City and Bachilea. This cities are at war edge, and are things even worse in dark places. Cultist, and gods. A Fantasy Kitchen Sink is near to the condition of the world. The rest of the world aside for The Last Nation is doomed.

Brandon is a guy who save his father in the beach thanks to his Psychic Powers, and he is invited to live in Bachilea for six months, he accept and he know the big city. Poor guy, in less of a week he realize who Bachilea is a bad place to live, but he can't leave the city for six months, he get a job for The Chairman Highman for write a book about the live and story of Bachilea. A inusual job who he accept (he need the money).

Misao is a girl borned in Brave City who is a student in Bachilea, she was very lonely and her Only Friend, a girl called Caronile was founded dead in a street, witouth any injuries. Her plot is about how she discover more things about Caroline and the "strange" circunstances whitch lead to her death.

How the relationship start ?

This start in the middle of the story, after the two plots has meger into one, and the things starts to make more cleans to the reader. The relationship starts like a friendship between the two, like companions, after a time Bran start trying to flirt Misao and they eventually become more close. Brandon and Misao help each other to get over their social issues and become a bit more sociable. They get even more close when the Revolution of General Hisao start, Bachilea get locked out and in a Civil War state with The General Hisao being his Glorious Leader. They tried to help others and protect every people who can. And when the plot become more and more weird and the Fantasy Kitchen Sink become more and more obvious..Brandon y Misao are together, trying to protect others and discover and stop the chaos.

edited 10th Sep '15 6:19:43 PM by KazuyaProta

Deumos, you've lost the crowd in every discussion you've had with Ambar. This should probably tell you that you have a problem and need to reconsider your approach.

Instead, you continue to tilt at windmills. You tried to rally the inhabitants of the Gundam Thread to come crash this one and argue with Ambar, in the process blatantly misrepresenting his position here. That was not a wise, much less a justified, decision. Now you've decided to continue cluttering up this thread AND OTHERS in Writer's Block with your personal vendetta.

This arc ends with you stepping away from the keyboard and reevaluating, or a mod getting angry. Choose the former.

edited 10th Sep '15 5:24:16 PM by Night

Yes, just drop it. Just stop, to all of us, including me. Please.

For Misao, yes is a japanese female name. The society of The Last Nation is borned of a mix. Spoiler for the work: The Last Nation is in a world After the End. Borned of the work of many, many scientists in the world, of several nationalities, and the names just get stuck with them.

About the things who they have in common, well...they are very unconfortable with social relationships, they also have a common interest in thing like The culture of the "Old World" and sobrenatural things (who -in the context in who live- is very useful).

To all the people on this thread. Just shut up and came back to our themes. Is a orden. A orden for every god and godess in existence.

All Deno posts was erased...even the only commentary of my idea. Oh, Crap!.

edited 11th Sep '15 6:48:29 PM by KazuyaProta

Just so to note this if it's necessary, I can pull out the contents of a troll-thumped post.

Who got crushed?

@Kazuya Prota

Let's fix the "only one person having responded to you" thing. At the moment your write-up is a little short. I gather from what you've said that they are the protagonists of two separate plot threads that run into one another part way through the story. Could you elaborate on what happens after that? Right now I know they assist each other, and that Brandon is the one who first takes an interest in Misao, but not much beyond that.

@Ultimatum

Probably not something we should talk about. If you really want to know, you can PM someone, but we should probably keep discussion of it out of the thread.

edited 12th Sep '15 12:49:23 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Thanks Ambar.

Well, yes you're right. They are from two separates plot who merges into one.

His first encounter is a little talk in the first chapter, but their real introduction is when one of Misao's "new friends" (a Magical Girl, Fantasy Kitchen Sink in their finest!) found Bran and compart information about the General Hisao.

A while after this Misao choose talk personnally with Bran who has more information for Hisao and for Caroline misterious dead. (Bran meet very weird things, Is Bachilea, the city in where everyone is special). After this encounter Bran get a sympathy for Misao and her sadness for the dead of Caroline and promise help her to know more for Caroline.

Eventually they start to investige together, and they become more close. After Hisao´s revolution they are briefly incarcelated for Hisao's Co-Dragons. After run of their jail. Bran have a little Declaration of Protection (Even if he know who in that moment Misao is more powerful than him -Misao has Low level Reality Warper powers-), is lampshaded by Misao herself.

They tried to survive into the chaos who is Bachiles and trying to stop not only Hisao but also The Cult of Douglas, a cult of despesperates peoples who blame God for everything bad. And are trying to create a Super-Hyper-Ultra Demon to try to kill him. Is a very weird world.

They become more and more close, they start to talk about their feels and Brandon help Misao to overcome the grief for Caroline.

For their personalities:

Brandon is a Nice Guy, but he can be a jerk ocasionally, with people who don't know. He have No Social Skills but he know who is sex. He was a bordeline Hikkikomi before living in Bachilea and getting the job like a "reporter". He want help other because that is good and Good Feels Good . He don't like talk with others about themes who he don't like, he love talk with others about themes who he like. He has a manía of "closing" himself into "personal theatre" (AKA: Representing a book/movie/whatever alone). His character arc is about Choosing his goals in live and assuming his responsabilities for him and for others.

Misao look initially like a Shy girl, and she is shy, really shy. Her Only Friend was Caroline. Carolina was the only girl who understand her, Caroline protect her for bullies, Caroline has many friends but Misao was her best friend. Caroline was...wait where not talking about Misao?. Misao was very dependant of Carolina, she was the girl who helped her in her deepest point. When Caroline was founded dead...Misao gets broken, she fall into a big depression and Misao never was a Genki Girl to start. She get a card about Caroline and she discover who Caroline's death was just part of a big scheme. Misao is shy, but he want help other, she is very cute with others, aside for bullies, and assholes. She help whatever who can. She has a great Heart. But...don't insult Caroline's memory in front to her and more important: Don't hurt others in front to her. Misao's character arc is about how she learn to get other friends and accept something really important: Caroline wasn't Jesús, she not is The Messiah. She was a Nice Girl...with many flaws.

edited 14th Sep '15 5:48:44 PM by KazuyaProta

What happened here anyway?

Well, from what I gather from the two posts about Brandon and Misao, I think they are in the natural spot of Fire-Forged Friends with a dash of romance. This isn't a criticism, mind, just what I see of the two. Overall, I'm quite neutral about the duo. The personality section attached was nice, but the whole picture, to me at least, was still quite unclear to me beyond that initial impression.

Sorry if I don't seem particularly helpful there. If you can go more in depth about the duo, I'd be interested.

Now, my case of unhealthy relationship. Ladeilia, of House Grace, Empress, and Grandmaster Knight Judicator Gale Flager.

A brief background information first. The Vinlan Imperia is the second largest surviving nation on the continent of Erits. Its figurehead is whoever currently sits on the Emperor/Empress throne, but the people with actual influence, and are thus most respected and feared, are the Knight Judicators of the Judicatory, officially the guardian of the throne and internal auditor, but more well known by the mass as the ruthless secret police organization to the Imperia's people and recognized by the Imeria's enemies as an outright monstrous black-ops whose cruelty and cold efficiency few can rival.

The Empress of the Vinlan Imperia, Ladeilia, wasn't raised by her late mother, and barely knew her father as a young girl, as she was raised in the confine of her private manor by the previous Grandmaster Knight Judicator Eleanor and her knights. When the old Grandmaster passed away, her second in command, Gale Flager, was appointed the Grandmaster, and stepped in to take care and raise Ladeilia to one day replace her father, who lost the Judicatory's favor long ago after a series of incompetence that almost sparked a mass rebellion. Ladeilia was indoctrinated from a very young age to despise her father, and in effect was nothing but a pawn to Eleanor, who saw a puppet in her that would be more convenient for her to control than the bleeding heart fool that was 'Emperor' Belondia.

But Gale felt a little different about the whole ordeal. As the young empress' handler, he personally saw Ladeilia grew from a child to a woman, and thus formed a special bond with her. He viewed her as a little sister, and while he didn't completely abandon the original goal of replacing Belondia with his supposedly more effective daughter to regain the mass' fear of the ruling caste, it's safe to say that he cared more about her than the entirety of the Judicatory combined ever did.

Ladeilia, practically brainwashed her entire life to believe that only a monster can be effective, was conditioned to love only two things; the greatness that was once her house, and the Imperia. Not its people, but its ideals. She's cruel and almost needlessly sadistic. She was to replace her weak father, after all. But she needed a figure she could depend on. Secretly, she's not as cold and cruel as the late Grandmaster wanted her to be. Since Gale was the only person close to her, discounting the army of servants and guards who were never that great a company, she gradually turned more and more attached to him. It initially started as a sort of brother/father-sister/daughter type (Gale was about a decade and a half older), but as Ladeilia came of age, this took a rather... sexual turn, though completely one-sided, as Gale never viewed her as anything more than a sister.

The thing is, Ladeilia didn't have a firm understanding of 'love,' at all. There's almost no line between a romantic relationship and a familial bond, if she ever felt the latter. This is because 'love', itself, felt so alien to her a concept that it sometimes physically distressed her.

Currently, Ladeilia sits on the throne as Empress with Gale as the Grandmaster serving her and the Imperia from behind the scene, and the relationship seems to come to a halt at the master-servant state, though Ladeilia's suppressed feelings for Gale is beginning to take a toll on her already messed up psyche, and Gale himself worries that Ladeilia is taking the evil part of her necessary evil role to the dangerous extreme.

edited 15th Sep '15 12:31:16 AM by arreimil

Ok. Ladelia is a screwed woman. Not a critisism because that was the intention.

I'm be sincere. I don't know how work with those two. I like the whole "father/daughter" things between the two but her feelings....

I'm more interesed in Gale's reaction. They become a romatic relationship Or not?

I support who not, sorry Ladelia but he has enought age to be you father.

The thing of who even like a adult she can't undestant the concept of Love...is akward. She is a woman-child.

edited 15th Sep '15 1:42:57 PM by KazuyaProta

Post 100. Yaay!

Waiting for the other guys in the thread.

For Brandon and Misao. Yes, are a obvious Fire-Forged Friends (Lovers in this case). Brandon want who Misao get over her issues. He gonna help her in the things who he can. Misao has more characterization than "Brandon's Crush"

She is the deuteragonist,and she has in certain aspects more development than Brandon. They are good guys with certain social issues who want the better things for others. But they want be happy too.

Opinions? I tried to avoid the Unfortunate Implications of both genres, i try to create a relationship between two good guys who want the best thing for other and help each other to grow up like human beings.

edited 20th Sep '15 9:01:24 PM by KazuyaProta