Naruto

Jiraiya seeing the tears in Older Naruto's eyes and immediately figuring out that he must be dead was (and I mean this in the nicest way) the best part.

Him lamenting that he won't get to see Naruto achieve his dream is sad, but he can take comfort in knowing it still happens and that Naruto grows up to be a great person.

Like I said, I wonder if Zabuza as starter villian color the expectations of people since is the most ninja stuff you kinda expect(well, the real starter villian was that asshole who try to steal the shadow clone jutsu).

This is probably tie with the fact Naruto look like self contain story before wraping everything into the chunin exams, orochimaru and bigger arc.

I will said the biggest escalation indeed are Naruto vs Gaara and probably Kyubbi naruto vs orochimaru when the later invoke three doors to stop the blast was probably the moment we get the idea Ninjas can unleash heavy shit to each other. Sasuke vs Itachi probably was the turning point

I disagree, a lot of the ninja stuff is still there for a good portion of the story. Chunin Exams are chock full of ninja stuff, like actually hiding, figuring out your opponent's location, spying, etc. Sasuke Rescue similarly relies on things like deception.

It's not a perfect fit, but i would argue that the whole Pain arc is the part where the series really loses the ninja edge. that's a substantial portion of the story, and not merely people misunderstanding the nature of the story.

Edited by devak on Jan 24th 2024 at 5:47:37 PM

Mizuki  (from Chapter 1) was also talking a lot.

But his case was justifiable; he was trying to destroy Naruto's morals and turn him against Iruka, so there was a legit psychological war there.

Brothers Diablo, on the other hand, did attack silently, but like the Anbu, they got defeated in seconds once Kakashi showed up, and they were struggling even against kid Sasuke.

And of course there is all those ninja mooks, the ones who wear masks and run with a kunai in their mouth, and almost any named character can defeat a dozen of them

The moral of the story is that to be an effective ninja, you must posture and monolog a lot .

.....................

Which is not a problem, if the Ninjas were not described as super practical, no-nonsense spies/assassins.

Naruto, for example, is criticized in and out of the universe for his lack of stealth, like when he came to "rescue" Sasuke from Hako, and instead of attacking by surprise, he declared his presence proudly.

.......................

However, @devak's point is good,  the series will be boring if the Ninja fought silently and pragmatically as they are advertised, and shōnen, just like superheroes comics, need a degree of trash talk and monologing.

Still a discrepancy, though.

Edited by jawal on Jan 24th 2024 at 6:51:48 PM

Neji's battle with Kidomaru at least involved some Stealth Tactics on Kidomaru's end.

Once Neji got to him, it was over.

Edited by Forenperser on Jan 24th 2024 at 7:53:35 PM

Going to hard disagree here. Basilisk The Ninja Scrolls is an exciting, engaging story about a battle between two ninja clans, each member having their own unique Jojo-esque power.

They don't tell each other jack about how their powers work, and tension is maintained as the audience observes the dramatic irony of a weak ability killing a stromg foe solely because the ninja didn't explain how his powers work or waste his time monologuing.

Trashtalking is present bwcause both groups hate each pther, but I vastly dislike how silent pragmatism rarely succeeds in Naruto. Sasuke is best ninja for this very reason.

^note One of my favorite moments in Naruto is when Madara revives. Everyone's standing there awestruck, Madara's ready to tear some stuff up... and Sasuke lunges at this fool like "okay cool, I'ma kill you now." Tries this twice too. Didn't work because Madara is OP but points to Sasuke for getting things done.

Edited by FOFD on Jan 24th 2024 at 1:54:26 PM

I love the above post so much I dont mind all the typos. I didnt have the patience to watch that entire anime but this sounds epic.

I ended up watching it because of a Naruto fanfic funnily enougu. The author wanted to write Naruto where the ninjas act more like the Basilisk ninja. At first I thought this was pretentious, but after seeing the anime proper I understood what they were going for.

Hunter x Hunter is another good example of how enemies with different powers fight intelligently while trying to understand each other powers and weaknesses.

But this exists in Naruto too; most enemies don't explain how their powers work; Tobi, for example, is lip-tight about it.

What I am talking about is unnecessary monologing.

................

Again, take Zabusa's first fight. His objective is to kill Tazuna, but he has to get past Kakashi first.

He manage to trick Kakashi and get him inside a water bubble jutsu, Tazuna is right in front of him, he can just kill him in a second; and the Team 7 kids can't do anything to stop him (As Sasuke inner thoughts show)

Instead, he wastes time going about:

"Ha, you call yourself Ninjas? Don't make me laugh. When I was your age, I killed all my classmates in a single day. This is how a real Ninja is made—not playing in your little school. Only by killing and surviving death multiple times can you become a true Shinobi, and only when your name is in my black list's book will I acknowledge you."

And I am like, "Why are you telling them this? Why are you comparing yourself to three children? What are you trying to prove? You are a professional Ninja; you should go for the killing and move on.Isn't that what you've been trained to do since childhood? Who cares if those brats are real Ninjas or not?"

It makes sense from a narrative POV, but there is a discrepancy between what we are told about Ninjas and how they behave.

..................

Anyway Basilisk is great; if anyone has not read it, they should.

And it has a terrific opening by Nana Mizuki too. I want to try it out again lol.

EDIT Indeed I did.

fair enough

Edited by FOFD on Jan 25th 2024 at 12:39:56 PM

...Didn't you just say that in an earlier post in the exact same way?

Basilisk is also a Seinen, so its not going to be like Naruto, as much as its more like Berserk or for a more similar comparison, Ninja Scroll.

Edited by Demongodofchaos2 on Jan 24th 2024 at 6:28:09 AM

I was about to defend FOFD but they did say the exact same thing twice lol.

Alfonso Obregon DID NOT want to get cast as Kakashi on the Latin American dub of Naruto. He acting impatient, distracted, with an obvious I dont want to be here attitude... And he got cast because they felt that's what the role needed.

Springtime for Hitler Trope did its thing.

Chunin exams are full of ninja stuff right until the tournament aspect of it, in fact I will said the forest is probably the best part since it really dangerous and there is a constant dreg around it, granted it was also the first showing of Kishimoto disregard for Sakura since when Naruto and sasuke are out of combat, she cant barely old against sound three and need to be rescue.

Pain himself is indeed the turning point given he manage to raze a village by himself really set up the idea as living weapon but I will said the scale start to get out before, first by Naruto vs Gaara but them by Orochimaru who manage to block a blast of Naruto transform and them you got Itachi with susanoo,

Like those two are probably signal that the series is moving from ninja stuff and low key battle to utterly jutsus.

See I didn't sit through the Pain arc when it was going, but I like that one somewhat because it started with tactics - Pain infiltrated the village. Then he started bulldozing it. Then he nuked it.

The first part was fine.

The first arc had a villain swinging giant sword and throwing water dragons, another who could create ice from nothing, and Naruto winning a fight by powering up more.

I don't think there was ever any intention of the series being a realistic depiction of ninjas.

what Shulgo said. Naruto Ninjas are literally just the way Ninjas were Mythologized in real life in anime form.

@FOFD did not say "realistic," though;  he is saying that he prefers when battles are more "tactical", or "cerebral" and when the Ninjas act pragmatically.

JoJo's Bizarre Adventure (part 3) and, Hunter × Hunter with their stand and Nen have some very silly and unrealistic powers, yet the battles are still relying more on tactics than brute force.

..............

With that said, Naruto characters never abandoned tactics and strategy completely, even during the War Arc, you still see characters planning, analyzing each other's movements and powers, and predicting their opponent's next moves.

It is just that this toned down a little from part one, because now you have Physical Gods like Madara and Pain.

Edited by jawal on Jan 25th 2024 at 9:10:32 PM

honestly the Pain fights were full of strategy, not Jojo or Hx H tier but perfectly presentable. Madara too but he's just a sheer wall of "lol, lmao" towards any strategy.

My point isnt so much that it would be boring but rather that you would have a very different story. One very different from the one Kishimoto wanted to write, and the story Kishimoto wanted to write is basically impossible to do in the format of people who sneak up on each other.

To name another example, One Piece features the Straw Hat Pirates who don't do any actual piracy. You can do such a story, but it would be very different.

I'm making a Naruto Timeline here. Anyone can add some some details if they have any.

I mean, kakashi and zabuza using dragon water was treat as WHOA moment that split the diferent between genin and jounin and more or less what big league is, by the time shippuden, it look pathetic quiant compare to susanoo and others

And we have the Anbu being amazed at Edo Tensei Tobirama summoning a large amount of water on dry land calling it truly Kage level battle.

Oruchimaru vs the Third Hokage Battle in Part 1 was supposed to be the epitome of Ninjutsu.

Then Shippuden came.