DEATH BATTLE

It's like the "evacuate an entire city in attoseconds" thing from Justice League, regarding the Flash.

It's cool, yeah. But the people who actually wrote for the Flash at the time just went "lol no" and never bothered to actually have his home series acknowledge it, because goddamn is that an awful thing to have to write around. Having a story go "Peter's actually so powerful that most of his enemies actually can't threaten him at all" is so over-the-top and unwieldy that anyone coming afterwards has no real option but to treat it as a one off.

(Granted, over in DC they have that problem a lot. The Justice League titles love to exaggerate its members to degrees that their own comics are very much not into.)

Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 18th 2024 at 11:33:01 AM

It’s one of those moments that’s cool in theory, but is weird in the wider context of the franchise and character. It makes sense that Spider-Man would definitely hold back to some degree, but it’d be silly to look at how many problems of his would just be “I’m barely not strong enough to keep up!” and then no, actually all along he was strong enough to keep up.

It’s like Zatanna needing to say spells and having occasional problem because of it, except no actually she’s definitely still capable of doing them normally, they’re just not quite as good. It can make previously defined limitations or weaknesses seem silly, even if it’s cool there in the moment.

Edited by ToadTV on Apr 18th 2024 at 11:31:34 AM

Oof, that's a tough choice. Kingpin VS Bane or Kingpin VS Penguin.

Kingpin VS Bane, they're at a more obviously level of superhuman strength and fighting skill, they're both very smart, Bane has beaten Batman, Kingpin has, as mentioned, beaten Red Skull while he was in a cloned Captain America body (comics are weird), plenty of interesting animation potential and the backstory to the fight would be fun.

Kingpin VS Penguin, makes much more thematic sense, despite Penguin clearly not being a weightlifter then he does legitimately have some great showings of strength and fighting skill, the banter would be much better, even if Penguin loses (which he almost certainly does) then it would remind people that he's not just a waddling crook, he's one of Gotham's most dangerous recurring villains for a reason.

I think that Kingpin still more or less stomps Penguin because without his gadgets, which Fisk can probably survive and disable, Fisk has overwhelmingly better showings of strength. But I think Bane stomps... okay, not stomps, but firmly defeats Kingpin, because his strength feats, durability and tactical mind are just better, albeit I don't think the gap between Bane and Kingpin is as big as between Kingpin and Penguin.

I’d throw my vote in for Penguin, just because there’s not a ton of really good Penguin match-ups I’ve seen. Bane has a few options, but Penguin not so much, and I think it could make for a fun dynamic in the animation between them.

Decent take really, Light vs. Columbo is really just a Columbo episode in the end.

Never really thought about how fitting Light vs. White is.

Edited by Mrbda241 on Apr 18th 2024 at 1:48:24 AM

Kingpin vs. Penguin, full stop.

If Bane is gonna fight anybody else, it should be Jack Hanma.

That’s a pretty fun one. I feel like Jack probably loses it, but he wind go down without a hell of a fight. And probably like. Fifty bites across Bane’s body.

I think the Lizard could have some good match-ups with some of Batman's rogues gallery. It's just a toss-up between who.

Killer Croc is the obvious choice, given they're both large reptile men that hang out in the sewers (yeah, I know Croc wasn't like that originally, but he's mostly written as a giant gator man now). But Man-Bat would also be a decent choice, since their backstories are fairly similar (scientists who experimented on themselves with with animal DNA and turned into human-animal hybrids that constantly must fight the beast dwelling inside them).

Edited by chasemaddigan on Apr 18th 2024 at 5:43:44 AM

I'm not vehemently opposed to it but I absolutely don't get Light VS Walter at all. Both master-criminals with relatives in law enforcement who evade said law enforcement and are very smart, but one is a teenager with a magic death notebook and one is just a very successful drug dealer. It's like Lelouch VS Tony Soprano. Light VS Columbo would end up a bit Columbo-focused, but that's only because his advantages and Light's disadvantages work together so well as a narrative, and it would still be a thrilling cat-and-mouse game to observe. Light VS Walter is two guys who don't know each other and don't know how to find each other, trying to find each other, until one of them catches an incredibly specific and coincidental break and wins immediately, or they both just give up and the fights ends as an anti-climactic draw.

Also while Walt has a gun and knows how to fire it, his literal only move in this hunt would be asking Saul if he can ask Mike to please find the address of this guy who he has heard through the grapevine is looking for him.

Part of it is definitely that Walt and Light have way better connections. By which I mean, any connections. Light VS Columbo is predicated entirely on a Criminal VS Detective theme, where Light could be swapped out with any other criminal and Columbo could be swapped out with any other detective and it still makes the same perfect amount of sense. Light and Walt are at least both villain protagonists that quickly go off the deep end the moment they get the chance for power, using “This is the right thing to do” as justification for their power hungry behavior, form criminal identities, evade the law, fall by the end, etc.

Of course, connections don’t make or break a match on their own. I still think Light VS Walter would be fun, as it places Light into the role of the detective who uses the Death Note and his associates to help him locate Heisenberg, while Walter works to cover his tracks even more and use his own connections in his criminal empire, while dealing with this new detective. I think it has way more potential than Columbo’s fairly limited “Converse with Light, then ‘One more thing’ him” and close the case. I don’t feel like a set up like that plays to Light’s strengths the best.

Of course, to that end, it’s way easier to make Columbo work within the context of how the episode would probably go and reach its full potential. Making Light VS Walter work to its best would necessitate a lot better writing to make work, and considerably more time spent on showing the two approaching the issue. Columbo as a “fight” definitely just starts at the final talk between them and goes from there.

I think Light VS Walter works better as a whole, but Light VS Columbo works better in regards to what an episode could realistically accomplish.

I don't think Light VS Columbo would start at the final talk, it would be more like a series of scenes taking place over a number of days after Columbo joins the Kira taskforce. Light makes progress on getting to know Columbo, and gradually realising what a threat he is as he clumsily avoids Light's creative attempts at both discovering his name and having him killed.

Light VS Walter has more connections, but less potential for actual conflict. Even in the comments of that video, they're all talking about how it would be Walt plus Jesse plus Gus plus Saul and Mike plus the international connections of Lydia plus Walt's hired Neo-Nazis, VS Light plus Misa plus the Kira taskforce plus the Kira cult plus any Presidents he's blackmailed recently. And that could work, sure, but it's not Light VS Walter. It's several hundred people VS several thousand other people. Light and Walter are practically non-factors in the conflict.

I don’t think that’s entirely fair. That’s like saying doing an army battle isn’t a fight between their leaders. Sure there’s others there, but that’s a mental battle between two people who built up their criminal empire, based on that idea I’d say it’s fair game to give them those in that situation. Besides, taking out the head of each side is still the primary “win condition” here, and there’s definitely still potential for them to come and face off one-on-one.

I’d say it’s very different from the dynamic Light and Columbo have, but I still maintain that it plays to Light’s strengths better than that match does. Better potential for mind games, he can actually get to use the Death Note, etc., at least that’s my take. I get the appeal in Columbo too, it just doesn’t strike me as really being Light’s best personally.

For all the talk of mind games and strategy and resource management and social manipulation, if Light gets the assistance of everyone he's ever worked with or blackmailed then he immediately uses the Death Note to blackmail the President into dropping a nuke on Albuquerque, since that's where the blue stuff originated. The end.

Bowser VS Eggman works as an army VS army fight because Bowser and Eggman (in his best mech) are probably the strongest members on each side anyway, so it could naturally come down to just the two of them duking it out, and whoever wins will win because of... themselves. Bowser's or Eggman's army might be an advantage to be considered, but ultimately the winner will have personally earned their victory. Light will win because the taskforce - or the President - did the work for him. That feels unearned, and anti-climactic.

I'm trying to get into the POV of liking it, but even the comments are like "Yeah, it would be epic to see Walt and Light's forces doing battle, causing chaos across a city, or even on a global scale!" and, like... have they just not watched Breaking Bad? How would this possibly happen? Walt's force are like twelve Neo-Nazis and some drug dealers. How would they even meet to do battle when neither one knows where the other one is? Are the taskforce and the drug dealers just randomly wandering the streets in groups, hoping to bump into each other?

Also, as much as I think Columbo beats Light, Light does have some win-cons, namely the Shinigami Eyes, although he wouldn't use them. Walt has nothing against Light. Seriously, not even a single win-con. Walt isn't a detective; he has absolutely no means of finding anything out about Light, his only move is to wait for Light to do something and then react to that, and his only method of finding out information is asking Saul and Mike for help, and while they're pretty resourceful guys, uncovering an undercover Japanese taskforce for hunting down a serial killer is way beyond anything they've ever done before. The abilities of his international links like Madrigal are extremely vague and unexplored.

As much as I want to see Jesse Pinkman punch Light in the face and yell, "Yeah, write this in your notebook, bitch!" I just don't see any logical set-up or ruleset for this fight that would make it work.

Edited by Elmo3000 on Apr 18th 2024 at 2:26:07 PM

On the topic of Lizard vs. Killer Croc... my money's on the Lizard. He's stronger and faster than Spider-Man, can telepathically control reptiles, and at one point even boosted his telepathy to affect the "reptile brain" of mammalian opponents.

Man-Bat has the advantage of flight.

Admittedly it's probably not consistent, but Lizard's evolutionary abilities allowed him to avoid attacks from a completely serious, not holding back Spider-Man. Well, not holding back as in he was trying his best, not that he was trying to kill him.

'Lizard' was angry at Curt Connors for holding that part of his psyche back, so he decided to kill Connors' son. Spider-Man fought Lizard shortly after finding out that he had murdered a child and Lizard was still able to avoid him. So unless Killer Croc can attack faster than Spider-Man can, Lizard should be able to dodge anything that he can do. Killer Croc's skin is probably tougher to pierce though.

If I could pick any Marvel mobster to fight Penguin, it'd probably be either Hammerhead or Tombstone.

Hammerhead especially, what with both being aquatic animal named mobsters who went from being small-time robbers and schemers into major crime bosses by font of constantly knowing how to manipulate the people around them. They both even have backstories about taking power during periods where other crimelords were busy fighting each other.

I think people overlook Hammerhead because adaptations keep turning him into other villains' minion (or just making him a jobber) instead of keeping him an independent supervillain.

Meanwhile, if I'd pick any Batman villain to fight Kingpin it'd be Ra's, though I may be being colored by the fact that the two actually went up against each other in an official crossover but stopped just short of actually fighting.

As for Lizard, Man-Bat makes the most thematic sense for him by far. The only downside is I don't think there's really any way for Man-Bat to win that one.

Edit: Actually, scratch that. The best DC charcter to fight Kingpin is Bruno Mannheim. I keep forgetting that comics Mannheim is no joke.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 18th 2024 at 11:35:08 AM

hammerhead could work fine but I personally still prefer kingpin for the penguin, also manbat is way better for the lizard than killer croc but still morbius makes the most sense actually since they both do have the same animal-theme of bats, while also having the thematic connections of formerly inocent scientiests turned into untamed monsters after a failed experiment turned them into freaks of science.

[insert the "Heroes are as strong as they need to be for a story to work. If a writer wanted to have Spider-Man defeat the Hulk with a single punch in one issue and then struggle to pick up a small car in the next, they could do that." quote here]

I don't know if this match up works thematically, but it sounds fun, especially as a tag team match too.

Junkrat and Roadhog vs. Bebop and Rocksteady.

Likely doesn't work since we don't see much of Junkrat and Roadhog together, at least not as Bebop and Rocksteady.

Edited by Mrbda241 on Apr 19th 2024 at 1:58:35 AM

This is less an example of a writer being flexible with a character's strength level in order to make a story work, but more a case of multiple writers handling the same characters and each having different perceptions of how strong the characters can be. Situations like that rely very heavily on Rule of Cool in a way that the usual flexibility doesn't.

In the case of event writing, like Back In Black and especially the Flash example, it's also an example of the writing for events not always caring about how the character written by anyone else, causing schisms between how the character is usually depicted and how they're depicted in specific situations.

My friend shared a really cool idea that could work:

Garrus Vakarian vs. Falco Lombardi

The connections they give are that they're "sci-fi warriors with authority problems who serve as the snarky, wise-cracking best friend to their series' main character, despite regularly leaving and rejoining their team."

Honestly, if Star Fox ever gets another episode, this is the match-up to do for me.

• Male villains from a double AA video game franchise specializing in a niche form of engineering that resulted in the deaths/abductions of more than a few people
• Antagonists who emphasize on stealth-based gameplay and tactics in opposite ways - both are aggressors, but Theodore is trying to detect the player while William is trying to remain undetected
• both arguably maintain unnoticeable daytime personas, but their inventions reveal their sinister traits
• both abduct/harass children
• both considered a genius in their field

Would Mr. Peterson be able to keep Springtrap or the other Animatronics out of his basement?

Isn't the Neighbor just, like... some guy? He lives in a very weird house and likes to abduct children, but I don't think that he's ever shown exerting any impressive physical energy. I think he might break down a door or something in one of the many versions of the game, but that still doesn't compare to a supernatural possessed serial killer robot though.

A fight animation would be a great joke though, with Springtrap invading the Neighbor's house and repeatedly getting really frustrated by the unclear puzzles. Undead William Afton growing more and more annoyed at the realisation that in order to grab the crowbar on the wall he needs to pick it up with a magnet (because it's really hot for some reason) and then because it's too hot to use, he needs to cool it down, but you can't put it in the shower or the sink and run the water because that doesn't work; you need to pick up a watering can and run the water from the shower or sink into the watering can, and then pour it from the can onto the crowbar, and now the water somehow cools it down enough that you can use it to remove the nails boarding up the door to the-

The fight concludes with Springtrap grumpily leaving the house, having failed to gain entry to the basement, while inside, the Neighbor is impaled through the mouth with a red-hot crowbar.

Works better as a DBX TBH.

Actually no!

Like Springtrap, got a convenient short series of novels that make him into a beast/serial killer/paranoid schizophrenic?

He's not a pugilist but he's in his fifties and still outrunning people younger, as well as throwing heavy furniture around his home.

His advantage though I think would be his wider arsenal and inexplicable abilities like shapeshifting and his temporary invincibility.

Edited by FOFD on Apr 20th 2024 at 10:35:34 AM