Alternative Character Interpretation Cleanup

Found some disturbing whitewashing of sex-trafficking on YMMV.Taxi Driver:

• Is returning Iris back to her parents a really heroic action? Iris claims that her parents hate her and that she ran away from home. She might be lying but given the tone of the letter at the end where the parents promise to make sure that Iris never leaves them again, one wonders if she was fleeing Abusive Parents and Travis has in fact returned her back to them. How bad must her previous life must have been that she favours her current life as a drug-using child prostitute? For that matter, can we even trust what Iris tells us about her life?

This is over on YMMV.Moriarty The Patriot, and I can't tell if it's a shoe-horn or just badly written (grammar error that needs to be fixed at minimum aside).

• The premise of the series shows William and his brothers killing corrupt and evil nobles and their desire to tear down the social class system in their country which made the audience thought that William is a communist or a Marxist. However, the Final Problem arc reveals his true plan is to unite the rich and the poor in order to reform British society which makes him more of a social democrat. The series has no indication he's anti-monarchist nor desires a revolution much like The French Revolution or Red October. He admires Maximilien Robespierre because of the Zero-Approval Gambit which William himself applied later on. Some interpret that William's plan as more of a stepping stone to allow socialist ideals within the British society and killing evil nobles is his Eat the Rich message that these people don't deserve the wealth that they've earned.

Permission to cut?

Don't know what to tell you.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Oct 13th 2021 at 8:47:17 AM

I don't really see that as white-washing, but it's not ACI anyway so cut cut cut. (FTR, I'd see whitewashing as more "oh, the traffickers weren't that bad" but here it just seems to be saying that her parents might not be any better, which is demonizing the parents rather than making the traffickers look good.)

As for Moriarty, I dunno the show so I can't say. What I can tell though is that going off the details presented it might count.

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 13th 2021 at 8:54:01 AM

There’s definitely a difference between his politics in the series than the way I’ve seen people talk about him (but I tend not to talk to other fans often and thus avoid contributing much to the YMMV page) but I don’t think in ways people argue about or discuss, and the entry feels as it’s written kind of an excuse to cram a bunch of political useful notes into the entry.

Maybe it could be rewritten as discussing if he’s a communist or a social democrat (which I think is the point of the entry) but that seems pretty mild for this trope.

Edited by Eiryu on Oct 13th 2021 at 11:31:20 AM

These are from the YMMV.Mobile Suit Gundam SEED Destiny page:

• Alternative Character Interpretation: Ridiculously common. Notable examples are Durandal (either a villainous Magnificent Bastard able to twist nearly any circumstance to his goal of Domination or a Well-Intentioned Extremist trying to bring peace to the world...or a Manipulative Bastard and Narcissist using some superficial charm and patience to go a ridiculously long way for his Control Freak goals), Lacus (either a Machiavellian Villain with Good Publicity using the two most badass people on the planet to Take Over the World or a genuinely decent person who's the only hope the world has for peace) and Shinn (either a borderline psychotic Wangst factory, or The Woobie engaging in Age-Appropriate Angst while suffering through a Trauma Conga Line).
  • It applies to most of the show's relationships as well. There pretty much isn't one that's straightforward.
    • Shinn and Stella. Is she his Replacement Goldfish for Mayu or do they have romantic feelings for each other? Or both? No one can agree.
    • Shinn and Lunamaria. Is she his Replacement Goldfish for Stella? Strangled by the Red String, or the first real trauma in Luna's life finally allowing them to relate to each other?
    • Rey and the Chairman. How far does Rey's apparent ironclad loyalty extend, or is it only to "Gil" personally, with another part having doubts about Durandal's methods? If none, why does he split (Gil/the Chairman, ore/watashi, to be Rau or not) so frequently? Was it Shinn he was really loyal to all along?
    • Lacus and Kira. The central idealized couple of the series, or Strangled by the Red String at Implied Love Interest? Is she his guardian angel and savior, or is their relationship healthy at all, considering Lacus essentially runs away from Kira and keeps things from him, Kira is shown to be demonstrably uncomfortable with her changing at all in an audio CD, and Lacus goes from a much more dynamic and forthright character on her own to Say My Name passivity the second Kira shows up again? Not to mention, their relationship has fairly strong parallels to Shinn and Rey's — a relationship people constantly question.
    • Athrun and Cagalli, starter of flame wars as to whether they are actually still together and/or meant to be together, or not.
    • Athrun and Meyrin, Talia and Durandal, Talia and Arthur, and on and on it goes. The one good thing about all this ambiguity is it makes for interesting fanworks.

Are the above examples legitimate or not?

Edited by gjjones on Nov 14th 2021 at 9:14:23 AM

It definitely needs its indentation fixed. Here's my first pass at it with comments.

• Alternative Character Interpretation:
  • Durandal: a villainous Magnificent Bastard able to twist nearly any circumstance to his goal of world domination, a Well-Intentioned Extremist trying to bring peace to the world, or a Manipulative Bastard and Narcissist using some superficial charm and patience to go a ridiculously long way for his Control Freak goals? Keep.
  • Lacus: Machiavellian Villain with Good Publicity using the two most badass people on the planet to Take Over the World or a genuinely decent person who's the only hope the world has for peace? Keep
  • Shinn: a borderline psychotic Wangst factory, or The Woobie engaging in Age-Appropriate Angst while suffering through a Trauma Conga Line? Doesn't sound like an alternative view of his character, just on whether you find his angsting annoying or not. Cut.
  • Shinn and Stella. Is she his Replacement Goldfish for Mayu or do they have romantic feelings for each other? Or both? No one can agree. Hesitant keep.
  • Shinn and Lunamaria. Is she his Replacement Goldfish for Stella? Strangled by the Red String, or the first real trauma in Luna's life finally allowing them to relate to each other? Same as above.
  • Rey and the Chairman. How far does Rey's apparent ironclad loyalty extend, or is it only to "Gil" personally, with another part having doubts about Durandal's methods? If none, why does he split (Gil/the Chairman, ore/watashi, to be Rau or not) so frequently? Was it Shinn he was really loyal to all along? Keep, as it's exclusively about Rey. Cut the first sentence though.
  • Lacus and Kira. The central idealized couple of the series, or Strangled by the Red String at Implied Love Interest? Is she his guardian angel and savior, or is their relationship healthy at all, considering Lacus essentially runs away from Kira and keeps things from him, Kira is shown to be demonstrably uncomfortable with her changing at all in an audio CD, and Lacus goes from a much more dynamic and forthright character on her own to Say My Name passivity the second Kira shows up again? Not to mention, their relationship has fairly strong parallels to Shinn and Rey's — a relationship people constantly question. Cut, sounds like its mostly complaining about the pairing.
  • Athrun and Cagalli, starter of flame wars as to whether they are actually still together and/or meant to be together, or not. Cut, this is just shipping drama.
  • Athrun and Meyrin, Talia and Durandal, Talia and Arthur, and on and on it goes. The one good thing about all this ambiguity is it makes for interesting fanworks. Same as above.

I also found this from YMMV.Mobile Suit Gundam SEED:

• Alternate Character Interpretation: Lord Uzumi's involvement with the G-Weapon Project. While Rondo Mina Sahaku initiated Morgenroete's involvement with the G-Weapon Project as established in Astray, how much Lord Uzumi knew about it remains in question. Kisaka certainly claimed that Lord Uzumi was uninvolved but notably Uzumi himself never makes a definitive statement in private. He publicly claimed responsibility and stepped down as Orb's Chief Representative in any case. So whether he viewed the project as a Necessary Evil to maintain Orb's neutrality in the face of ZAFT and the EA's technological advancement is left to the viewer. It's possible that he trusted Admiral Halberton enough to let the project go forward.

Edited by gjjones on Nov 16th 2021 at 8:38:17 AM

What is the issue with that one? (Other than needing a link to Mobile Suit Gundam SEED Astray)

Edited by delayedboom on Nov 16th 2021 at 7:35:37 AM

"It's possible that he trusted Admiral Halberton enough to let the project go forward" could be considered Speculative Troping, but I could be wrong.

Edited by gjjones on Nov 16th 2021 at 9:41:17 AM

Here's an entry I found on the YMMV page for the Black Panther film, which I brought up here as well:

• Is Killmonger a Death Seeker? Besides refusing medical help after his defeat, he always chooses the self-destructive path. He kills his girlfriend and burns the sacred garden, implying that he isn't interested in having an heir or leaving a legacy for himself even though he's a prince with a legitimate claim to the throne. Furthermore, despite having the skills and connections, Killmonger also chose not to follow a more heroic career like becoming a costumed vigilante, entering politics or starting his own company, thus denying himself the chance to help others and live a life of luxury without the needless deaths. The fact that Killmonger pursues self-defeating atrocities implies that he doesn't care about what happens to himself so long as everyone experiences his suffering. This only makes his evil plan more horrifying in hindsight, since it amounts to a murder-suicide as he intentionally wants millions of innocent lives to die alongside him.

The entry doesn't make a good case for this, as just about any villain is open to the same criticism of why they don't use their powers in a better way, and most of what it cites isn't supported by the film either. Due to its length, I thought I should bring it up before making any changes.

I haven't really seen any fans arguing Kilmonger is a Death Seeker.

Should the entry be cut?

I would say so. Setting aside the reaches in logic, if there aren't fans running around saying that Kilmonger is a Death Seeker, it's not an example. It's basically one troper's pet theory.

Found this on If I Stay:

• Alternative Character Interpretation: Is Mia a Spoiled Brat who doesn't care about anyone or anything except getting into her dream school or just a normal teenager going through typical teen angst?

I've never actually read the book, but according to the entries on the page Mia loved her family intensely, so much so that finding out that her little brother and parents are dead almost had her undergo a Death by Despair. I'm not sure how that first interpretation can be considered without outright ignoring that.

Well, without reading the book it's impossible to say. The writing just might not portray her in the most flattering way.

Directed here by ATT, will repost my concern from there:

I found the following Alternate Character Interpretation entry while looking into the FMV game Not For Broadcast - courtesty link here.

For starters, the wording is very strange, presenting its alternate interpretation almost like fact. Second, it very much hits on a number of common talking points for authoritarian fearmongering and arguably engages in war crime apologia. For context (foldered since the game only just came out of early access and these are spoilers):

All in all it stinks of misuse to me but I'm hesitant to cut it entirely since it's a contentious political matter and the story very much engages in Grey-and-Grey Morality that borders on Black-and-Black Morality at some points.

Hmmm, okay. I'm not sure it should be cut outright, but it can definitely be reworded.

Yeah the main red flags for me were characterizing nuclear terrorism with an octuple-digit civilian bodycount as "defending their nation" and implying the affected countries deserved it and brought it on themselves. Having read up on the game and checked playthroughs there probably are valid Alternate Char. Interpretations for the two major political groups in the game given the dark, dark grey morality of the story but this "totalitarianism and mass murder are justified when they're effective and done for a good reason" stuff... really doesn't feel like one.

Edited by Dirtyblue929 on Mar 3rd 2022 at 3:12:52 AM

After thinking on it and reading the other example, which also didn't quite feel like a valid use of the trope (just stating an interpretation of a character's role in the story with more "the bad guys are actually good" commentary), I went ahead and ditched both in favor of an entry about the leader of Advance; there's likely room for similar examples about the other major political figures of the story.

Edited by Dirtyblue929 on Mar 4th 2022 at 6:31:09 AM

Sounds fair.

Avatar: The Last Airbender has this entry about Iroh

• Iroh's retirement to his tea shop: old man stepping aside to give the younger generation a chance to build a new world order or covert political hostage to the Earth Kingdom in order to secure a peace treaty?

I looked "Iroh 'Willing Hostage'" and the only result was a fanfic that had nothing to do with his life in Ba Sing Se.

Iroh was allowed back into the Fire Nation to briefly take the throne.

Also it seems more like a theory then given something similar is in Avatar: The Last Airbender - The Promise

Iroh is a willing hostage of Ba Sing Se, so Zuko can't consult with him about all this stuff he's going through.

Edited by randomtroper89 on Mar 5th 2022 at 4:11:55 AM

Yeah, that feels way too much like Epileptic Trees. I’d say cut.

This is from the YMMV page for Wonder Woman (2011 pilot):

• Alternative Character Interpretation:
  • Several reasons for why Wonder Woman acts so cruelly in the pilot and yet no one important is bothered by it is put forth by various reviews and other viewers:
    • Bizarro Universe: This shows stars the Bizarro Wonder Woman, Justice Lord Wonder Woman (though SF Debris has noted that Justice Lord Wonder Woman is less extreme than this version), Flashpoint Wonder Woman, or One Earth Regime Wonder Woman.
    • Stockholm Syndrome: People are too terrified to stand up to Wonder Woman and have come to internalize it.
    • Loss of Identity: We're actually watching an insane Amazonian who has usurped the real Diana's identity. "Bonkers Betty", perhaps?
    • Screw the Rules, I Have Money!: Wonder Woman is rich enough that she's able to pay off the right officials.
      Nash!Wonder Woman: Laws are for poor people!
    • Villain with Good Publicity: She's actually a villain with a really good PR department.
    • Jerkass Has a Point: Her actions are tolerated because thus far, no matter how brutal her methods, she's always been right about the kind of people she goes after.
    • In-Universe Rooting for the Empire: The people, as is often the case with violent antiheroes in superhero shows (The Judge, Rumour, The Justice Lords, Lunatic, etc.) approve of a brutal vigilante giving scum what they deserve.
    • Straw Character: She was intended to horrify the audience with how her killing and torture garnered support, and would have eventually denounced those things as she developed into a "proper" character who agreed with the writers' sensibilities. (Not too unlike what happened with Arrow a couple of years later.)
    • Can't Get in Trouble for Nuthin': She's trying to sabotage her public life but the media always gives her a break.
  • Willis isn't some innocent kid. While fate opted to kick the crap out of him, he was a cheater who only got his scholarship via performance-enhancing drugs.

My question is is this formatting alright, where a bunch of objective tropes are listed under Alternative Character Interpretation?

While the examples might be valid if rewritten, this definitely doesn't feel like a proper way to write them. It reads like a bunch of tropes got cut for complainy misuse and got punted here instead.